Drs. Joe and CJ have Dr. Cody Misuraca back on to chat about corrective exercise! What it is, what its not, what holes exist in its use and what way we can critically think about exercise application, movement and pain/symptoms
Dr. Cody Misuraca is head coach at Waypoint Strength and Performance, an online remote coaching platform for barbell athletes and other fitness goers looking to improve performance. Follow him for physical therapy, fitness and pain content @codymisuraca.dpt and @coffee_bycody for all your coffee complexities and needs
Instagram:
@dr.joe.dpt
@the_movement_dr
Facebook:
Training Through Pain
WODprep
The Movement Dr.
Additional resources:
Pain and Injury Consults
The Movement Dr.
Drs. Joe and CJ have Dr. Cody Misuraca back on to chat about corrective exercise! What it is, what its not, what holes exist in its use and what way we can critically think about exercise application, movement and pain/symptoms
Dr. Cody Misuraca is head coach at Waypoint Strength and Performance, an online remote coaching platform for barbell athletes and other fitness goers looking to improve performance. Follow him for physical therapy, fitness and pain content @codymisuraca.dpt and @coffee_bycody for all your coffee complexities and needs
Instagram:
@dr.joe.dpt
@the_movement_dr
Facebook:
Training Through Pain
WODprep
The Movement Dr.
Additional resources:
Pain and Injury Consults
The Movement Dr.
Welcome
Speaker 2:To the golden nuggets podcast. This is Dr. Joe Camerado here and I have, uh, Dr. Cody, Ms. Rocca back round to he, uh, couldn't stay away for very long. Uh, we also have Dr. CJ DePalma joining with us today. He was able to clear up his schedule. Um, Cody, last time we chatted about resistance training for the older adults. We had mentioned corrective exercise and, uh, Cody had brought up that he wanted to chat at length about it more, and I do as well, because I think it was a very, um, annoyingly, prevalent and frustrating to talk about topic that, um, is grounded in a lot of seemingly like nuancing, cognitive, um, leaps, uh, about complex systems. And so I thought that this would be a good way for us to kind of chat about it. Uh, Cody, I don't remember everything about your bio, so I'm just gonna let you do it. Um, because I think that you could probably do it better than I can.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, thanks for having me back on. So I'm Cody, I'm a doctor of physical therapy here in sunny, San Diego, California. Um, currently my full-time full-time job is working in an outpatient ortho clinic for a hospital system. Um, I also, uh, own and operate weigh point strength and performance, which is a strength coaching business, uh, mostly online platform. Um, and then I have a background working, uh, when I first got out of PT school for the first couple of years, I was working in a cash based setting, primarily with, uh, functional fitness, CrossFit, law enforcement, military, and stuff like that. So that's kind of where I started my career and then slowly transitioned over to, uh, outpatient ortho. Um, and then, like I mentioned, last time I was on in the last year, I've been doing more work in the hospital, acute care. So kind of seeing the whole, whole spectrum of rehabilitation up to strength, coaching.
Speaker 2:Very cool. Um, CJ, I know that like we have, I guess there's two different conversations that we could have here. One is about corrective exercise for performance, and then I guess the other is about corrective exercise for pain or symptom presentation. Um, I think in the first part we could, at least I wanted to kick it off with symptoms and pain presentation, because I feel like that is more my wheelhouse. And maybe on the back end, if you wanted to talk about efficiency with training or Cody, if you want to talk about changes in, um, I guess mechanics of lifts, uh, we could talk about that as well. Um, that's, that's definitely not the same topic, but I think it will. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Um, so I think the biggest thing when we talk about crack size, well, first Cody, what is corrective exercise? How would you describe it? That is a great question.
Speaker 3:And there's a lot of different organizations that have defined corrective exercise. So you might get a different answer depending on who you talk to. Uh, generally speaking. Um, so like for instance, I think NAZA has their own definition and they're one of the largest accrediting bodies for fitness out there. Um, so we could use their definition. I don't have it in front of me, but it typically centers around the idea of using biomechanics and, um, like, you know, kinesiology type models for identifying like faulty movement patterns of faulty postural positions, um, and then correcting those things to optimize performance or prevent injuries or, you know, a whole host of other things, but typically tends to center on identifying faults in the way that people move and then fix them.
Speaker 2:And I think Greg layman posted about this today saying that you were like already assuming or taking aside when you say faulty movement. Right. Um, which, what did, did you read that post?
Speaker 3:Uh, I just skimmed it, unfortunately I didn't, uh, didn't have the opportunity to give it, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, we're kind of assuming that there's something that needs correcting. Um, and I think that as PTs, we usually hear this in like the visual, um, like the, the visual assessment. Let's, let's talk about like, like shoulder six, scapular scapular dyskinesia, which is an abberant movements. Uh, and I put quotes around abberant, uh, movement of the shoulder blade while we're reaching up overhead. Um, and then there's this subsequent like, idea that we can intervene on bits and pieces of the musculature to strengthen that movement so that it looks better. Um, and so that the person doesn't feel pain anymore, right. Or doesn't have symptoms or, or yeah,
Speaker 3:Any number of things. You're right. Um, there's a million different things that fall into the bucket of corrective exercise and a million different ways that people will go about assessing these things, which can make it a difficult conversation to have, because if we wanted to touch on, you know, all of the different things that go into this idea of the corrective exercise paradigm, there's just a lot of different things to cover. Um, but I'd say, yeah, generally that's my primary issue with it is that, um, it tends to dichotomize movement or position into good or bad, or like faulty or, you know, non faulty optimal, I guess. Um, and so we're like, yeah, like you said, we're making this assumption right off the bat that if something looks outside of, uh, what we expect, um, that there's something wrong or bad or injurious or suboptimal about that. Um, and that can have a lot of downstream effects on the way that people perceive themselves and perceive their abilities and, you know, their long-term continued participation in exercise. And so considering that, I think it's really important, um, to make sure that we have good definitions about those things and then actually have some degree of certainty that, that there's actually evidence to back those things up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, I think pain, I think we need to take a minute and talk about like, why, why can't we think about changes in movement or structure as the only way to kind of go down the path of solving or fixing pain or symptoms, because, um, if we can almost at the beginning of this, like divorce ourselves from these, again, I put the scare quotes up these abberant movements, um, and understand that it's not only that then we can kind of have an easier conversation going forward and CJ raise your hand.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, just our, you know, our basic, I guess a newer definition of pain yields a, an emotional, um, and sensory like, experience, right. So it's not mechanical. And when we can understand that pain, isn't purely mechanical, then we can start to create a disassociation that all movement is good or bad. Right. Like there is a dichotomy of movement when there are so many, when we understand that there are so many other factors of, of pain, right. Things that are way out of our control, like way out of our control. And, um, and so I think also looking at just the fact that so many people just move different and so many people move like and don't hurt. And like, that's like where it is like, so like, even if we're like not buying the, you know, like the, not really diving in to like the emotional connection to pain, right. Or like sensory responses or belief patterns. And, and like all of the, all of the cognitive stuff that, that kind of like rolls into like a pain response and just look at the variance of movements of things like a deadlift, like there are world record holders in every way, class that deadlift completely different. Some with a ton of Rhonda positions, right. That like we have demonized over time. And, and some that like, look like they came out of a textbook, right. Like, just right. And so, but none of them, I mean, I mean, some of them have pain, but not related to like their pulling pattern or their movement pattern. And so I think that's like where I initially, cause I mean, my first, so the movement doctor's first, like motto was like, uh, basically like fixing pain through, um, like mechanics and posture. Like it was, it was like, it was there because that's what we were taught. And it's like, you know, I had good posture and I ended up paying and, but then like, it's so it's you create this association, but then you look at someone like, you know, and I, I try not to like relate everything to CrossFit, but Tia is such a great example of like, not a good mover from a clean perspective that doesn't have any issues. Like she's a Commonwealth games champion. She's a CrossFit champion. She's about to be on the Olympics. She wants to be an Olympian in another sport. And yeah. And, and she legit like, watch her run. Like she's got like, she's, you know, I mean, she's got like valgus and like all of these things and it's like, she's fine. Right. And it's not fair for us to compare the lay to the elite. But when you, when you create adaptation over time, like the body's just there, like are some movement patterns, like not ideal for some people. Yeah. They got a ton of pain when they're doing the thing. Like, let's like, see if it like changing, it could help if it doesn't then. Oh, well, but yeah, I it's like create this just association from like the pattern itself is what's causing the pain. Um, because a lot of the time it's, you know, people do it and they're fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think that talking about like expectations and beliefs, we're influencing that while we're are trying to change the patterns that people have, um, while they're in the clinic. Right. I mean, it's, it's almost ironic that we are able to take somebody who's having a pain event, boil it down to just them moving funny and tell them that this is going to fix it. When on the other side of that coin is probably just making it worse. But as they, you know, experience regression to the mean or natural history, or just getting better over time, they're conflating the two or smushing them together thinking that the two are very interconnected, which when it, when it, you know, when they move, not how they expect again or when they have pain again, they're expecting it's because they're moving, it's this like terrible, no CBO, uh, that happens.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's thanks. Yeah. But go ahead.
Speaker 3:I was just gonna say the whole, you know, regression towards the mean, and natural history thing is like a whole other rabbit hole. We could go down, but you're right. I mean, any intervention that you apply over the course of time will likely look effective. In most cases, if you're correlating the two, because things often tend to progress toward the mean, right. People start using an intervention when they're at the peak of their symptoms. And so typically symptoms will regress from there. Or the natural history is that things will gradually get better over time. Um, and so a lot of things will look like they're working or appear like they're working. Um, and for some people that may be fine. Um, I think it's important to recognize the, the costs that go into these corrective exercise paradigms, um, you know, the amount of time that you have to spend doing it, uh, what that takes away from, in the rest of your training, the rest of your life. And then of course the, the narratives that it tends to instill long-term and how that can affect, uh, you know, affect your participation down the line and your beliefs about your own body.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I want to spend more time on the di training effect or the deconditioning that happens while we're trying to make corrections at a low level, because like, I know that we're again, not calling anybody out, but the PRI boys will take athlete, just finding. Yeah. I mean, you know who you are not to call anyone out, but not to call anyone out, but you guys are really screwing it up. Um, so we have like high level athletes that experience pain, right. Or it really anybody who performs at a higher level than they will in a PT clinic or a PRI clinic. And they go into
Speaker 4:It's different. Hold on. Is that, that's another goal of light. Yeah. Is that like a whole nother bro? Is that expression? All right.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, I've it just the, the, the speed at which like the, get the, uh, brakes get hit in some scenarios is crazy because it's almost like there's. And again, I, I it's, it's tough to judge based on behaviors and not intentions, but it's, it's almost like what's the long-term plan here. I mean, we're slowing people down, they're going to get better because we're decreasing their intensity of whatever they're doing as far as training goes and we're, you know, trying to do something again, like the, the thought processes, they, this, this aberrant movement happens even unloaded, right. Even if I'm just reaching up overhead. So we must have to intervene at the lowest level. Right. You must have to intervene at the lowest level so that we can correct this, um, dysfunction quote unquote, because we don't want to build right. We don't want load dysfunction. Um, and so, and so it's just like the, the deconditioning that occurs, it happens so fast and it takes so long to get back that even just a week of doing like bird dogs with a balloon in your mouth and a foam roller on your low back can just kind of derail everything. And it doesn't seem like there's a plan to like appropriately load them in a progressive manner, right. Back into sport.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, what is that like? I mean, so like, based on the interactions I've had with PRI patients that were like in the trenches, and I was super, super fortunate to have a very knowledgeable coach that like, um, CrossFit coach who like was a CrossFit athlete, pulled himself out. And I mean, this guy was, I mean, like he could have, he could have passed PT boards like that. Like he knew he was like, knew everything. I was very impressed with like what he had. And he was like, he was 14 months into PR. I had like worked his way up the chain, which is like what they do. Right. When you're unsuccessful with like an entry-level dude, you go to, like, you find someone who's like regional and it's like a hierarchy system. Right. Very, very culty. And so, um, he was like working his way up to like the people who were teaching, like the highest levels. And, and he was like, he had a little cohort of friends, um, that were in his same boat that had been working for like almost two years now. And, and, uh, they still had lots of pain and, and, you know, he's like talking to their lingo, which, you know, I feel like I'm a relatively intelligent person and I have no idea what they're saying. Like still, like, I've like sat down and like, try to like understand it. And I'm just like, Nope. Way out of my league. Like any of the terms. Yeah. And so it was amazing like where he was from a training perspective after like 14 months and still struggling with pain. Um, and his, his fellow cohort was a year ahead of him or a year further in with the same problems. And they're like, okay, you have to do these exercises continuously because all right-handed people have this, like whatever, they're like RO rotated rib. I don't know. They like, everyone has the same compensatory pattern or whatever it is. It's like body design
Speaker 3:Comes down to your liver.
Speaker 4:Right. Yeah. Right. And, and it's like, everyone's born wrong. And I'm like, what's, uh, cause I had never dug into it. And he was like, telling me about it. And it was like, everyone is born with this false. And I was like, wow. I mean, like someone has created this. Like how would they know what's right then anyways, well, I want to dive into that, but it's crazy. Like to your point, there's no movement, there's no progression back to whatever it was that they're doing based on that. And you can see some really high level golfers in the pros that like, you know, um, uh, who is it? No, no, no, no, not that high level of golf person. Um, anyways, there was someone, uh, it was kinda a lot of back. I can't think of it anyways. He struggles with it a lot. And like, he's, his training has done. Like, that's all he does. He pulls on balloons all day and he's paying free, which is a great whatever. But like, that's like, that's it? Like, what is, what is that like? Is this like, I don't know. I just can't imagine never doing anything else.
Speaker 3:So considering the costs associated with some of these corrective exercise paradigms, whether it's PRI or FMS and the, you know, corrective exercises that go along with that, like the cost of taking time away from your training to do these other things, maybe you're putting all of your training on hold, you know, uh, indefinitely, because you don't want to stack load on top of disfunction. Air-quotes um, considering the costs that are associated with that, presumably there would be like a really like well-supported, trade-off like, there's a lot of evidence behind this or, you know, like this has been the only thing that's been shown to work. Like presumably that's what you would expect. Um, and when you look at the evidence behind it, like, uh, like PRI is mostly based off of, uh, observations of like very specific, um, like pathological like pathology groups, right? So people see OPD and stuff like that. Um, and so like, it's just based off of observations of these small cohorts of people and then applied broadly to the rest of the population. And that's kind of the extent of it. There really isn't anything else behind that. Um, so it seems like a, it seems like a poor trade-off to make.
Speaker 2:And I, I think highlighting the escalation of care that you were saying that like this person had to continue to go to the next highest level. It's, I mean, it's not only a monetary grab, but it's also, we see this in, um, a vast like swath of intervention where we pay so much attention to trying to decrease somebody's pain that we totally forget about trying to get them back into function, building confidence, reassuring them, doing value-based things. And we only focus on their pain that when the one thing that we're doing doesn't work, we escalate to something that's a little bit more severe or intense, and we're still just focusing on, on trying to fix their pain, which is not what we should be doing. Right. It's part of it. But, um, we should be trying to do value based things. And then, you know, next thing you know, you have somebody who is getting, uh, some sort of, you know, QL removal because they are twisted in one direction and they're opening them up. No, I just made that up. Huh?
Speaker 3:Sure. Like an SSI joint fusion or something.
Speaker 2:Sure. It's down the road. Um, but this escalation of this propensity to pay so much attention to pain because we think it's due only to the structure. Um, and this escalation of any sort of care is just mind blowing because what happens when you do the highest little thing and it you're still have pain afterwards, like we could look at spinal fusion, right. Where you do a super high level thing and you still have pain afterwards. And it's like, well, what else is after that?
Speaker 4:Right. PRI the end all be all removed the fusion starting PRI. Right. Um, one thing I wanted to chat about was, let's say,
Speaker 2:Let's say we do get somebody deep into doing, you know, scap pushups, pushups plus, and they're doing, you know, a dumbbell pullovers to try and work a, their lats and some weird plane. Does any of this?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, it's all about context. It's all about context, CJ. I think you only do the big three and you're salty. Is there anyone who does anything
Speaker 2:Big five, right. We got to add, press bent over row in there. Um, but what sort of carry over? Does this have into their return to training,
Speaker 3:Right? Yeah. Presumably none. Um, cause it's, it's very low intensity, right? Yeah. That's the other thing with all of these corrective exercises. So you're, you're spending all this extra time doing things that are very low intensity and yeah. Probably don't have a lot of carry over, um, or, or develop much in the way of skill development or strength though. Some of them maybe could, but you'd be doing them for a different reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I used to think of like doing some sort of exercise again, let's just say in the clinic, like somebody's got pain while they're pitching. Right. Let's try and do the closest thing that we can as far as, I mean, as I think about it now as like how few steps can we take back from, you know, the exact specific thing that they're having trouble with. Whereas before I was like, how can we strengthen the Peck and how can we strengthen the lab? Because those are two things that are involved in throwing, right? Which isn't I guess the worst way to go about it, but it's also not really the best. Um, I'm kind of rambling now. I don't know where that was going to go, but I do have another question. Um, I know I already know where I am on this scale or on this topic, but even if we do, like, let's say 12 weeks of corrective exercise, do we actually see that their movement changes in that specific range of motion or joint or, you know, test?
Speaker 3:And maybe because I feel it, I feel like
Speaker 2:Let's take again. I keep going back to like capsular Wayne, but let's take scapular lane. For example, I feel like in the stuff that I've read it, we can't, we don't actually see that they have a change in their movement, their abberant movement or their like whatever they were doing. I don't know. Have you guys also seen that,
Speaker 4:Repeat your question.
Speaker 2:The corrective exercises that we do actually make mechanical changes in the person.
Speaker 4:When I have someone squat a lot, their squat usually gets better. So, but I don't know if that's under the same belt. Right. So again, I think that's like what we're defining are we talking about like our low level bird dogs and like isolated. Okay. So no. And like, that's why I initially it's like, I feel like why a lot of us got away from like the posture fight was because as many Bain at Facebook you could do, like, you know, like you just, didn't all of a sudden just like go from slouch to like, not slouched, right? Like, no matter how many times you were like externally rotated and like, you know, scapular, retraction, it just didn't change. And so, um, I don't think any amount of like non-specific movement practice is going to make the move at veterans. So you do the movement and do like in practice it there. Right? So like, like I think the biggest, the biggest one we see is like a hip shift in a squat. Right. And like, you can do all the things, whatever, right? All your unilateral, like force stuff and, and, and, and whatnot. But like, you still have to like get in a squat with a bar on your back or whatever your preference is and figure it out at that point, whether like you're pushing on someone or you're getting tactile and put or whatever it is that helps you're still doing that specific movement. And I don't think, and this is just how I teach people how to move a barbell and snatch and clean. Like you can do all the overhead mobility bands and, and, you know, distractions that you want. But the only way to get better at like, to get more comfortable with the bar overhead is put the bar overhead. So, no, and that's why, like, that's why I moved away from actually like got that specific thing from a name that must not be named. Uh, but he just closed the gym in San Francisco. No, no, it wasn't. No. Cause he doesn't practice any of that. And it was actually ricin. Rustin's all about like time and attention and position. So like build whatever. And that was like probably the one thing that I'm still blocked by him on Instagram. So I think I am too. Yeah,
Speaker 2:That's fine. Cody, you got to get blacked by him and then we'll be happy. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe I am. I don't, I don't tend to look at those things. Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, most, most skills that you practice are going to have transference to things that are fairly similar to them. Um, so that's like another, another reason to like think really hard about why you're doing this corrective exercise and what sort of effect it's going to have. Um, and maybe your time would be better served, practicing a close variation of that movement, getting a little more skill carry over, um, you know, actually preparing yourself for the movement that you're gonna do.
Speaker 2:I think there's totally a difference between improving your skill at a movement. Like what CJ is saying, like exposing yourself to a squat over time and taking somebody and put them, putting them on your table and being like, why is your squat shifting at the bottom? Right, right. And being like the, find it laying on the table, Oh, it's your vastus lateralis. Isn't doing what it's supposed to. So let's do, you know, quiet, let's do quad extensions with your foot turned in to try and help your squat. And so I think that that might be a better route that I was going down before, uh, than the question that I had asked.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. There aren't many, there aren't many things that you can measure in simple isolation like that, that seem to, you know, have a, have a large impact on the emergent movement pattern. There's a few like, like quad strength, um, you know, people that have had knee injuries like that as a pretty large impact on outcomes down the line, but there's a very specific way you measure that and you're not measuring it with a manual muscle test sitting on a plinth. Right. Um, and there's not really much else that has any evidence to support it. Um, yeah,
Speaker 2:I think is also interesting about the corrective exercise realm is, um, that like people use, seem to use like their testing as almost if they did a good job or not. You know what I mean? Like instead of trying to like the, like there's a paper that, that says, um, outcomes, measure outcomes. And I think that that's, uh, kind of an interesting way to think about it in that you're not really seeing if the person's better at their sport or the movement that you were doing with them, but you're seeing if they're better at the test that you were using before you did the intervention for that thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So again, you'd want to know with certainty that the thing you're measuring actually correlates to something meaningful down the line and it doesn't, I mean, you could look at the thing that's probably the most highly researched is the FMS, right? There's tons of tons of research that's been done on the FMS. And like as a whole, that body of literature suggests that like, there is no correlation between those, uh, you know, movement tests and injury risk is usually what they're looking at. Um, so yeah, I mean, again, if you'd want to spend all your time on this and be measuring these things, you'd want to know you're actually measuring what you want to measure and that it's reliable. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So why, why is injury risk not a good thing to try and measure?
Speaker 3:I don't know. That's not a, it's not a good thing to measure. It's just a question of how, how well can we really nail this down?
Speaker 4:Are we actually measuring it? Yeah, because I mean, what is it? There's only, I felt like something else might've gone, but they say like the Nordic girl or good ham raise is like one of the only ones that has like a really good correlation to like injury prevalence of, uh, of a muscle that it's testing. Right. Um, uh, I mean, that's the only thing I've ever read. You know, you guys are well more versed in the literature than I am, but that's the only thing that's ever come across is like, Hey, Nordic curl really good indicator of risk of hamstring injury. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Um, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean the, the, the Copenhagen is included in the FIFA, uh, exercise routine, but like the Nordic hamstring definitely has the most research behind it. Uh, like the most number of randomized controlled trials, suggesting a reduction in hamstring injury risks, specifically there's other studies out there on like general strength programs being effective. Um, probably not as well developed as a field of literature. Um, and then like we could, you know, say something similar for the quad again with knee injuries, especially like ACL injury and ACL reconstruction, tons of tons of literature to support that. Um, but yeah, you're right. Like outside of those couple things, there isn't a ton of, uh, really high level evidence for other specific though. Yeah. It does seem to appear that generally resistance training does reduce injury risk.
Speaker 4:Wow. Have you guys ever seen someone do an order curl like all the way down without touching the ground, come back up, you seen that video. It's like, it's a soccer it's like when FIFA put it out, like it's a professional soccer player that did it. And you're just like this guy's like floating in midair racing Tyree
Speaker 3:Kelly too. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Oh, I, I wouldn't doubt that it's also anthropo blank. Anthropometric yeah.
Speaker 3:Sound too. Is their anthropometry. Um, yeah, like interestingly, the Nordic hamstring exercise, you probably get the benefit of that exercise from the fact that it's an egocentric overload, meaning that you can't come back up again. Um, and a lot of the physiologic effects of that exercise come from that. And so if you can perform a full Nordic hamstring curl down and up, chances are good. You're not going to get the benefit. Like you're too strong to get the benefits of it. And you have to add weight so that you can no longer perform it. Concentrically to get the benefits of eccentric overload. And there really aren't many other exercises that you can effectively essentially overload for multiple repetitions.
Speaker 4:You could set up like multiple bars and I can just like send them over and just like drop it on the, on the couch. Like each time
Speaker 3:If you've got, if you've got some, some friends that want to help, you know, you use the bar back up after a position of something, you know, if you had weight releasers, you could use that, but then someone needs to put those back up again. And it's just very, very time and efficient, um, in the sport of power lifting, like the Nordic hamstring exercise seems to be getting a lot of, uh, a lot of play on Instagram lately. And it's like, well, like, does that exercise have a lot of carry over to this sport? And like, can we really apply essentially overload to these other exercises?
Speaker 2:The reverse Nordic would, would probably be a better one to carry over into powerlifting, I guess if we were to try and sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So it'd be tough to overlook to, to create the same principle. We really tough to overload that pretty sketchy. At first,
Speaker 3:You could probably use like a, like a rope or something, you know, to like pull yourself back up with, but most people can concentrically push themselves back up. So then the question is why this, and not something more specific to the sport. You can make a lot of arguments for a variability of movements and training, you know, having a beneficial effect longterm. Um, but yeah, there aren't many other exercises like the Nordic hamstring that really have that specific effect.
Speaker 2:So we feel that a question today from somebody in our wide print masters group about muscle imbalances. Um, I figured, I guess we could just chat lightly about, I guess, where we're muscle imbalances that were found like I was from, uh, Rochester, um, I guess where the idea that muscle imbalances come into play and why it's probably not a good way to really think about pain symptoms,
Speaker 3:Um, and performance, I guess. Yeah. Pick your system. Like they all, you know, like a lot of them come down to that, those ideas, whether it's PRI or FMS or, uh, you know, genders upper and lower cross syndromes Yonda
Speaker 4:I think, um, I mean that's where corrective exercises have like been stemmed from right. To improve and then balance right. Of like your like 10 tension and strain or ratio and, and, uh, short and long. Right. Which is like, you know, huge on FMS and gray cook. And, uh, and, and so I think that's where the innate flaw is unlike, you know, so I have an awesome definition, pulled up corrective exercises, a technique that leverages and understanding of anatomy and physiology and biomechanics to address and fix a movement, compensations and imbalances to improve quality of movement during workouts. And so, you know, I think that right there just creates this notion that like there's a right way to like, be a human and there's a wrong way to be human, like, to like pick up your dog, you know, or like pour your bowl of cereal. Um, I think everyone's seen the Instagram, uh, Mo like a spoof, uh, yeah. Um, well, God, um, no, we, we don't, you know, but I'm talking about that on here. I want to get many extra, any extra attention. Um, but like the, the, you know, video of like, you know, the guy that's got like a big beard, he he's like walking around the house, like throws the pillow up in the air. Yeah. They're pretty good. Or you're like overhead squats and bowl of cereal. Um, and, and so, yeah, the imbalance thing is it's tough, man. I think it, I think it really stems down for me. What I struggle with it, the most coming out of school was like, I have no idea how to measure it. Like they taught you how to like, measuring, like, I have no idea, like how this is relevant in any way, shape or form like, or, or what I'm really looking for. Like there was never good objective reasoning behind it. So that's where I struggled. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, so like, I don't know, maybe, maybe we can make a specific example. So like John does upper and lower cross syndromes. Like that's a, really a really common thing in this corrective exercise paradigm, even if it's not referring to John does specifically though those concepts are often focused on, um, yeah, so like this upper and lower cross syndrome refers to like phasic versus tonic muscles. So, uh, gosh, remember, which was which off the top of my head, but all muscles are either like predisposed to being tight or predisposed to being weak. And then this like results in air-quotes postural abnormalities or something like that. Um, and this, this came from his observations of people with neurological injuries. And so it's interesting to me when, you know, again, this is another case of, of someone making like a, a, an observation of a very specific group of people, um, and then applying it generally to the entire population. But if this were a thing that were a problem, phasic, tonic, muscle groups, upper lower cross syndrome, um, which again is just kind of like this idea of some of those muscles are tight. Some of them are weak, you know, air quotes pulls you into these, these positions that are a problem. Um, presumably you would expect to see that, uh, you know, like carry over to something that we could like measure and point to and say, yep, that's a problem. Um, and when it's been measured, there are studies with 10 to 20 year followups on posture and their association with spinal related pain in the neck and the lumbar spine in adults and children, and like overwhelmingly this, this data suggests no correlation between the two. So if upper and lower cross syndrome and phasic and tonic muscle groups were a problem, you would expect to find something there. You know, you need to have some correlation for causation to exist. So that's just like one example of why thinking about imbalances, plod, um, cause that's a really common, common way to think about imbalances. Um, generally speaking asymmetry is the norm in human beings, not the exact
Speaker 2:Yeah. And even like, I can't, there's only a few sports that I can think of that are like totally bilateral, like perfectly symmetrical, which would be, I guess, powerlifting, Olympic lifting. And that's it, is that it
Speaker 4:Maybe, maybe like pushups,
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's not really a sport
Speaker 4:Portions of gymnastics, maybe like the hot,
Speaker 2:If you look at rowing, like I know that that Derek miles know likes to use rowing a lot. And you know, as a rower for six years, I only turned to the right for six years, um, tennis players, baseball players only hit one way. They only throw one way. And yes, again, these people all have pain sometimes, but that is not how, like, we can't just assume because people like Powell, if there's only like, are very balanced in their way that they move, that they're never going to hurt. It just it's.
Speaker 4:I think there's a flaw there too, because even at your highest level of, um, supporters of like imbalances, like they, most of them have a caveat. So like unilateral sports. They're like, well, they're an app. Like that's like, they're okay doing it. Cause it's their sport. Like what the does that mean? Why do they not have pain? Like, that's a stupid thing to say, like, I understand that you support them in their sport. And I think that's good, but like you're saying that they're an exception. Why, why could they be an exception? Like they should be, they should be demolished if the socialist picture. Yeah. Like you have like, uh, like a volleyball player specifically, right? Like that is, you know, jumping every day, one rotation the only way. And they usually don't weight train at all then like, that's like I have no, no, I don't know. Like, there's like, again, another massive inherent flaw with reasoning of, of like these imbalances. Um, and trying to like say no, these people are fun cause it's their profession. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think at the end of the day, and a lot of this comes down to just an over extrapolation of like individual or personal observations of things. And it's just that, they're just not, well-supported like, I think I remember reading that the FMS, um, I had the book once, uh, in PT school and I read it and I believe if I recall in the intro, they, they talked about how like they came up with these movements, like on a, on a, on a plane ride, like a trip somewhere across country. And they just like sat down and like just made them up. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I read that story.
Speaker 2:And that actually brings me back to a point that I had forgotten about, um, which is like arbitrary movements, right? Talking about corrective exercise, trying to improve the ability for people to move through space, talking about, um, looking good and not looking good or moving well or not moving well. Um, it's I had almost like an epiphany one day where I was like, Oh, the movements that you're doing depend on the equipment that you're using and how the people that are running the show are deeming, you know, a movement standard or not. And if there isn't anybody, then it doesn't really like, you don't really have to shape your movement around what you think is a good or not movement. Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. As long as you, as long as you, you know, haven't fully bought into the idea that certain movements are good and bad, then yeah. You can kind of choose to do it whatever way works best for you if you're not planning on competing in something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Very interesting. Um, do you guys want to talk about like corrective exercise for performance? I guess, because again, I think CJ and I kind of, I don't know, you get on me for like saying like, it doesn't matter. Just do whatever you want and then you're like, no, we kind of have to do this stuff that way. And so like how would you, because I know that you give a lot of corrections on a regular basis in our group. Like how do you kind of go about what's that, that that's my job. It's fun. Yeah. True. I guess, how do you, how do you, like, do you just kind of have this picture of how the movement should be and then just kind of base your corrections on that and then how do you structure those corrections over time to try and achieve your goal of what you want them to look like?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I think so there's, if we're talking, let's just like use weightlifting. Right, right. Um, or we could use rowing we'll use weightlifting weightlifting as like two schools of thought. Right. You have like the, an Eastern European way and like a Chinese way. Right. And so I teach a Chinese style method. Right. Which is like very like are close, vertical pushing with the legs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and then receiving in, um, the American way, which is an externally rotated position. And so this is just what I've found over the years to be the most effective, to teach people how to do the movement over time. Um, uh, and what I have seen to be most available to the people who do CrossFit. Right. And so I'm referring to like shoulder position, right. So Chinese and Eastern Europeans all have like slight internal rotation overhead. Right. And me, and it's just a personal bias that I don't teach that to look to people who don't have a lot of experience under the bar and don't have a lot of movement patterns because a lot of them default to like a very, I don't want to say severe, we'll say way far pendulum. Right. Of like whole shoulder girdle, like jumping forward. Right. So we're trying to like remove that position to get here. Right. So that's like where my I'm at. That's what I was taught. Right. As a coach. And, and that's like, what I teach people. Right. I don't think there's a wrong way or I don't think the other way right. Is, is wrong. Um, uh, it's just like what I do preferably. Right. And so initially when I'm trying to coach someone to like snatch properly, um, we talk about the receiving positions first and we're, or at a point where, or like my goal is to teach them the movement without like demonizing the other ways to do it. Right. And so I'm like, when I say, Hey, you know, you're here. I just want you here. I just talk about, you know, a more advantageous position. Right. And in relation to performance, right. I don't say, I usually don't like refer it as like safe or bad or dangerous or less dangerous, et cetera. Um, uh, I mean, there have been some people who were like, they're like in the overhead squat and they're like parallel to the ground. And like, I wanna, I want to change, change that for the safety and safety reason,
Speaker 2:Because this is something that I go back and forth with very recently or the past few months, seeing two very different sides of the same coin or just tutoring camps that are like, people will, like one side of the camp is like, we need to, we need to very directly intervene on everything that we see to make sure that there is efficiency in the movement. Right. And then the other camp seems to be, and again, I, I can't accurately speak for them, but I can kind of glean. It seems to be like people will, self-organize in an efficient way, given the amount of time that are given time and patients and, you know, multiple exposures. And I don't really know where, if I, I don't know if that's a scale, if I should be on one side or the other, but I wanted to get in and get your guys's opinions on those two sides. Yeah. I mean, I'd say
Speaker 3:Probably somewhere in the middle for me, um, on the one hand, if you're trying to get better at a very specific task, um, there are probably things like key, key points of performance that you're trying to hit. So for weightlifting, like you want to maximize a vertical bar movement during the pole and during the catch, you would like to maximize a relatively upright position, um, where everything is fairly stacked. Again, this is primarily for mechanical efficiency, try and maximize the weight that you can complete the lift with. Um, and so there are things that we can point to biomechanically that would, we would want to improve upon, but from a motor learning standpoint, we wouldn't there. It probably isn't in someone's best interest to over cue and force them into these positions right off the bat. We want to kind of set bumpers on the lanes, give people like a bandwidth to kind of learn within, because we know that people do tend to learn pretty well from mistakes, as long as we give them feedback mechanisms for it. Um, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't really go a hundred percent one way or the other, if we don't, if we don't have something that we're trying to work on and that's a specific task we're trying to be better at then I wouldn't, I wouldn't expect, uh, the, the movement to self-organize into the most effective way of doing it. But I also wouldn't try to maximally cue someone all the time because that doesn't seem to be really effective for learning longterm.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's like the paralysis by analysis concept and, um, and will see that in the group, like most of the time when someone's trying to snatch, right. We'll just use the snatch, um, uh, and their, their way they're they're far. Right. There's like nowhere near, like I tell them to go from the high hang and do a power snatch. Right. So like going within the bumpers, right. Like, let's just start there. So we just made a video. It was like my five and for water, like my five favorite exercises for like someone who has like the beginner, the beginner, like barbel athletes, someone who's been snatching, um, you know, that has the barbel that doesn't, um, you know, that understands like the basic knowledge I know is basically like just teaching, like what the overhead position could and should generally feel like, and like how to create a bar path, like straight up and down straight and, you know, in vertical and then how to receive the bar in a power and in a full squat. Right. And if you can't receive a room full of squad, then you stay in power. And so we create those bumpers. Um, and then we try to, um, just hit those points, performance over coaching in the group. Uh, and you know, when they're like, one-on-one, it gets a little bit more specific over time. And, and so, um, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's tough, like initially, right. It was all about like, the reasoning was because we're trying to avoid injury. Right. Okay. This is a question I had as well as raising my hand because no one could see for is like, we had you can't you said mechanical efficiency. Right. And so, like, let's kind of, I just want to dive into that of like, why that is different than, uh, um, minimizing like risk of injury. Like, how do we define those as different? Because initially that's basically what a lot of the biomechanists and the imbalance focus people talk about is like creating the most mechanically efficient will yield the least amount of injury. Right. And so how do we define that as different when we're talking about performance or how do you justify it, obviously I'm on your same side, but how do you justify it? You know, what is your reasoning for, for being okay with adjusting it for the skill, but maybe not to reduce injury risk?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I just, I just wouldn't necessarily see them as the same thing. Um, there are a lot of people that move really efficiently for their task that can end up having pain. And there are a lot of people that can move really inefficiently for the tasks they're doing and not end up having pans, just so many variables that go into it. Um, that I wouldn't necessarily, I wouldn't assume that mechanical efficiency is going to have a direct relationship with the development of pain or injury. It can certainly be related. Right. Um, you know, if he could come, come to this idea of like tissue, new capacity or tissue tolerance for, you know, acute musculoskeletal injuries, if you alter or change someone's techniques significantly enough. And you're shifting where load is being placed throughout the system. And then you throw a ton of load behind it. And there's just so many other factors that go into it to ensure like technique alterations, acutely could have an effect on injury risk, but it's certainly not the only thing. It's certainly not a one-to-one relationship. You know, we can see it kind of go both ways and people that are super efficient still having pain and injuries and sleep people who don't look super mechanically efficient for the task, you know, being just fine. Um, so I think the, the pain and injury side of it is just more complex. Um, there's so much more that goes into that.
Speaker 2:Cool. If that answers the question.
Speaker 4:Hmm. Here's my question. You know, Joe, did I answer your question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. And here's the thing I'm just, I like, I'm trying to listen as best as I can because I don't know like where I am on a lot of this stuff. Uh, and so it's good to get like more information. Like, I've just, I'm just kind of sticking questions out here and seeing what you guys say.
Speaker 3:I feel like most people in the like rehab and performance space, aren't really fully on one side of that or the other, like there aren't really people out there just like, yeah, do whatever the F you want. It'll self-organize like, no one really thinks that. And nobody else on the other side of it is like, yeah, we have to cue this a hundred percent all the time. Um, I mean, I'm sure there are a couple of people that are like that, but the majority of people are probably somewhere in the middle. Um, I think that, uh, you know, it's just like anything else when people, they, they have their camps and things become polarized. Um, and they'll, they'll miss characterize the, the stances of the people they disagree with and try and make them appear more extreme in their stances. Sure. Um, I think most people are probably somewhere towards the middle of it. It's just, you know, degrees of how much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, uh, I think a more recent problem that I've been thinking of is like making corrections to, let's say the squat, right? If, if somebody has like a sticking point in the middle, um, there's part of me that says that, you know, that sticking point will go away. If we continue to expose them to that movement and they get stronger and better at that movement, they develop more skill with a certain weight that weight will no longer produce that sticking point. And then there's another side of me. That's like, you know, maybe we should shift the bar forward a little bit and try and work on, uh, I guess, a very close variation and try and see if we can get new Accenture's strengths a little bit better, um, or stick a box in there and try and work on that specific point in the squat to try and make them much stronger. But then that specificity, isn't really close to the comp squat, the competition squat. And so, again, there's this kind of like back and forth that I continue to have with myself where it's like, yeah, they're all squats, right? So they're probably all helping in some way, but I don't know if taking somebody out of a full competition squat and putting them on a box or, or giving them, you know, bands or chains or something like that is a helpful way to get through that. And I don't know how to answer that question. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's really complex, but like sticking points will always exist for everyone. If we're talking about a discreet movement, like a squat or deadlift or a bench press, there will always be sticking points. If you're approaching a maximum load, there's always going to be a point in the movement where mechanical efficiency is going to be at its lowest and it's going to slow down and you're not going to just eliminate it. Right. If you could just eliminate the sticking point, you would just continue adding weight to the bar infinitely. There's always going to be a limiter. It's a question of whether or not you stick at that point with more weight on the bar, or maybe over time that sticking point changes a little bit. If people become relatively stronger in different areas, but sticking points don't go away. Right. You just, you just get stronger.
Speaker 2:It's almost like the, the people that I see that do like overload work or boxed stuff will say, well, a year later, you know, we look at the same squat with the same way and it's different, right. It looks a lot better. Or we look at the same school with more weight. It looks a lot better, but I don't know if I, what you said it looks better. It looks a lot. Right. Well, let's just say, yeah. Yeah. So we have, it looks easier, easier, right? Sure. Sorry about that. Yeah, but I don't, if that was because they, for however duration long have been exposing them to some sort of work that was probably more stress or more weight on the bar than they would have done otherwise. And then they're just, it's almost like when we take somebody at the beginning of rehab or a pain event, and then at the end we say they got better because of our intervention and not all the stuff in between. And I don't again know how to suss that out either.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's a reason why there is hundreds of different camps in the sport of powerlifting on like how to go about getting people stronger because we did, there is no definitive answer. We don't have that doesn't mean that there isn't like one right way. Maybe there is, we just don't know what it is. We don't have good ways of controlling for all of the other variables that go into that, to know with certainty that this way is the best way, because if we did, chances are good. Pretty much everyone would be doing it roughly the same. Right. Um, but there's so much variability in how people go about coaching these things to get people strong
Speaker 2:In the right way is progressive loading with RPE faced. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4:Um, I think, I think, I think, um, yeah, I think, I think there's definitely like, you know, a ton of, obviously we've proven that in like every sport, right. Skill development, speed development, agility, power strength. But if someone, you know, I think it does boil down to like, if someone wants to get stronger, like lifting weights, heavier weight progressively in some fashion is like, so there is a way, right? Like, but like what exactly? Like, so it's all purple, but like there's a million shades of purple. Right. And so they're not all the same, but it is still, there's like, you know, if you want to get better at like mixed training conditioning, it'd be getting better across it. You have to breathe hard. Like you have to do it now. There's different ways to go about it, you know, and things like that. If you want to snatch really well, when you're really tired, at some point you have to do that. Right. So I think there is a way, you know, but there's like, it's not as specific as maybe we like would like, are the camps like try and say, like they have the right way. And that way it probably works for a lot of their athletes, but there are for sure people that fall lame out and get smashed from it, or just have no success whatsoever.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think with a lot of these different camps, so coaching, regardless of the sport, weightlifting, powerlifting, you know, functional fitness, whatever it is, um, there are gonna be, uh, people that are selected for, for certain coaches styles. Right. They'll go to them because they believe in that or they've responded to something similar. Um, and then there's going to be this like, you know, burn out or flame out effect. Um, you know, the there's, there's something called the, uh, uh, what is it, the survivor survivorship bias, bias, um, where, you know, we, we tend to not account for the variables that we end up not seeing. So if someone just like stops working with you or in a clinical setting, the person just stops coming in and you're not actively seeking out that information and assessing whether that means that it was a failure or they just moved on. Um, you just like have this view that everyone who works with you is doing well, because over time you've like selected for people that are gonna do well in your system and the ones who continue to do well in the system select for themselves over time. So, um, yeah, I think that's a huge, huge reason why we see all these different approaches to it. And everyone thinks that they've figured out the best right way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, and it's always interesting when you see that one person who lifts like a weirdo by my definition and is like super strong, like, um, you know, people that do like frog Sumo or people that are doing like, um, like underhand bench press or people that do like really routed them. I mean, it's not like a competition, it's just a way to hold the barn. And I'm sure that as too, um, I've never tried it though. It sounded like it might be hard. Um, but it's, yeah, it's always interesting when you, when you're talking about that, like selection process, like some people I guess, are just better at it and that's kind of where I fall back on that. Almost like self-organization part is like, if they're left to their own devices, can they get really strong? Yeah. Probably, but I don't know where, where that correction comes into play.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. But again, I don't think there's anyone out there who's like charging money for coaching. Who's just like, yeah. Just like totally self-organized. Yeah. That would be very good value a hundred a month. Like, uh, you know, I don't think anyone actually believes that a hundred percent sure. I think it's a mis-characterization. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Cody, how is the hamstring doing, because I know a few months ago, right? You,
Speaker 3:Oh, it was never a hamstring adductor. It was always an adductor. Yeah, no. Yeah. So for people listening who don't know, uh, yeah, I had, I had like torn an adductor, uh, doing some pin squats several months ago. Um, yeah, that's fine. I'm just not doing a ton of squatting right now.
Speaker 2:So you feel that had you done some big toe strengthening that that Copenhagen might not have happened?
Speaker 3:I probably should have like filmed rolled foam roll adductors more or something. No, uh, yeah, these things are impossible to predict. Um, it happened with an amount of weight that is not particularly heavy relative to what I've been capable of doing in the past. And I was not training with a purse what's that? Oh, so I think, I think I had like three 45 on the bar for pin squats and like the most weight I've ever done pin squats for reps for is like four 15 or something like that. Um, and like training volume, wasn't particularly high in that period. And I hadn't had like a spike in training load and, you know, as long as other things that could potentially go into it, that
Speaker 2:Was your diaphragm I'm telling you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Not enough balloons. Um, yeah. I don't know it is what it is. Um, you know, it's one of those things where there, there are risks with lifting weights and injuries do happen. The, you know, in powerlifting the risk seems to be fairly low, but the, you know, there's like, trade-offs, I would rather have like musculoskeletal aches and pains here and there and keep doing exercise that I enjoy to like minimize the likelihood of serious, like cardiac issues and like stroke and like all these other things that can happen from, from relative inactivity. And that's something I talked talk about people all the time when we discuss risks of various types of exercise.
Speaker 2:Cool. Split your by your back feeling good. Things are moving and you're training.
Speaker 3:Uh, I'm not doing anything that's really powerlifting related currently. Um, I've been working on my overhead press, which I'm terrible at. I have a terrible overhead press. I've been working on that a little bit. Um, just doing like some fairly nonspecific, lower body strengthening. Um, yeah, not really pushing anything super specific right now. I don't have any plans to compete in the future. Sure. So, cool.
Speaker 2:CJ, do you have a final question because I know that I asked you the other day and you didn't have one.
Speaker 4:I didn't think about it. You got to remind me before we get on the phone. We get on the podcast. Sorry. Um, last time
Speaker 3:We talked about the apocalypse.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I have since sent CJ a book on how to start farming, um, how to build houses out of lumber, the basics, how to make soap. Um, so we're getting ready. There's going to be, um, a squat rack and a skier at the compound just came in.
Speaker 4:I will, it's in the box. I got to put it up. I got to put it on the wall before my wife gets home. So she just like, won't realize that it's new,
Speaker 2:Um, while you're going to expense it. So she shouldn't see it in the account. Right. Cause it was,
Speaker 4:It was expensive. You pay less taxes.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't have, I don't have a phone call. You want to talk about coffee for a little bit?
Speaker 4:[inaudible] it depends on if you edit it, if you edited it out. Yeah. I might edit the front of you. What are you drinking? What are you drinking right now?
Speaker 3:Nothing. This is water. I know
Speaker 4:That. Which you have been aggressively Downing on our Sol. I was thinking about that. It was good for you to stay at least no more than like a two minute, two minutes cycle for you to grab it. Unless you're a Mason jar.
Speaker 2:It's uh, not something I've seen in San Diego.
Speaker 3:Um, so right now I've got a bag from little giant coffee roasters, which is a local roaster here in San Diego. Um, it's a, it's a washed Ethiopian coffee called, Oh gosh. It was hum. Baylor googy is the name of it. Um, yeah, it's really good. Um, it, at the beginning of the bag had some, uh, fragrant notes of blueberry and tasted like blueberry in the cup. That's kind of coffee changes over time. It's kind of tasting a little bit more vanilla E at this point, but it's good. Highly recommend little giant coffee roasters, San Diego. It's a small local roaster here in bird. Rock, rock up there, like a bigger multi location coffee. Once you're here in San Diego.
Speaker 2:I have a question now what's the timeline that we're looking at for when you will have your Tacoma for off-road funsies.
Speaker 3:Hopefully no time soon. It's just a dream.
Speaker 2:That's all right. So you just got to dream of getting a big RV and go on camping like a maniac.
Speaker 4:And that dream is that dream is not a dream has happened as well. That's not a dream is coming down
Speaker 2:In the middle of the country sometime when the world has ended,
Speaker 4:We're just going to go to Yosemite. I'm trying to convince them to go there for like, for like six months. I'll definitely go there
Speaker 3:Again. If you guys are going to go to Yosemite, let us know, we'll meet you up there shortly. And this comes up there two years ago. It was fantastic.
Speaker 2:We can take so many pictures for Claire's three 65 days and make up for the time, which I saw that she posted one yesterday, um, which is, I feel like we had something to do with it because I was like, how's the pictures? And she's like, ah, I didn't do it yet.
Speaker 3:She's she's been really busy prepping to prepping, to take the MCAT and thank you. Yeah. BBM keeps her busy too. So,
Speaker 4:Oh yeah. I got a question. I got a question. What is the scariest dream you've ever had?
Speaker 3:Oh, uh, I had a dream recently that I woke up and there was no coffee in the house and I was late for work. Okay.
Speaker 2:No drug addicts have that same dream, terrible. Um, Cody, where can everybody find your stuff? Uh,
Speaker 4:You got my worst.
Speaker 2:I don't dream. That's the thing. Here's the weird part. The wife dreams every night, like from the moment she closes her eyes. So when she wakes up and so I think that she sucks all of the dreams out of the room. So like lucid dreaming stuff, close my eyes and I wake up and it's the next day. That's pretty nice. It's very nice. I think, although it'd be nice to be in a fantasy land at some point. Um, but yeah, Cody working, uh, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:You can find me on Instagram at Cody Miserables, uh, dot DPT. Um, you can also find me on Facebook way, point strength, performance. Um, and then my Instagram page links to my website as well and coffee, but Cody. Yeah. Yes. And at coffee underscore by Cody for coffee related content.
Speaker 2:Very cool. Well thank you for coming on again. We'll have to have you on again at some point for something else, because you're a smart guy.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.